AMA Vintage Dirttrack Rules for 2010

[hugoct]

the AMA has posted their rules for their Vintage Dirttrack Series
http://www.ama-cycle.org/rulebooks/2010 ... letin2.pdf
I was told the schedule will be up soon
6 half miles
3 shorttracks
1 mile
1 TT
After review I would say there are two things I like:
1) emphasis on historic accuracy in class structure and bike classification
2) place for the grandkids to ride
hugoct
Bill Milburn

[phantom309]

So Bill, how was the first ama round?

[MetrallaGirl]

Hey Tim,
Thanks for asking. Round 1 was terrific. After a rainout of the Am races on Saturday, that put the Vintage Series on the new track at Daytona first! With almost 50 entries, the program went smoothly, trophies were awarded at the track and all were happy. Round 2 at Volusia was rained out, but the series will pick back up in Orangeburg, SC on April 17th. Hope to see you there.
Peg Miller
Metro Racing

[phantom309]

Hey Tim,
Thanks for asking. Round 1 was terrific. After a rainout of the Am races on Saturday, that put the Vintage Series on the new track at Daytona first! With almost 50 entries, the program went smoothly, trophies were awarded at the track and all were happy. Round 2 at Volusia was rained out, but the series will pick back up in Orangeburg, SC on April 17th. Hope to see you there.
Peg Miller
Metro Racing

Thanks peg, No won't be there as I have a few things ama rules won't allow.I here another guys motor did not match his frame and got sent home . good luck

[MetrallaGirl]

Tim,
I was there at the tech line and I am not aware of a bike that was turned away for non-matching numbers. Do you have any other information on who this may be? Don and the AMA are doing their best to make it possible for everyone that wants to race the series be able to race. So, any help on this is appreciated. I don't like to see rumors take over.
Thanks,
Peg

[phantom309]

Tim,
I was there at the tech line and I am not aware of a bike that was turned away for non-matching numbers. Do you have any other information on who this may be? Don and the AMA are doing their best to make it possible for everyone that wants to race the series be able to race. So, any help on this is appreciated. I don't like to see rumors take over.
Thanks,
Peg

peg,All I was told was there was about 40 entries and someone with a Bultaco astro got turned away because it had a pursang motor? thought it was best to go right to the horses mouth? here we are:)

[MetrallaGirl]

Tim,
From "the horses mouth", there was NOT a Bultaco that was turned away at all from the Daytona race for any reason. I appreciate you following up on this. As we are learning, believe only half of what you see and evidently none of what you hear.
Thanks, Peg

[phantom309]

Tim,
From "the horses mouth", there was NOT a Bultaco that was turned away at all from the Daytona race for any reason. I appreciate you following up on this. As we are learning, believe only half of what you see and evidently none of what you hear.
Thanks, Peg

Thanks peg, now I wish i could remember who it was that was telling me that. It was a long week.

[phantom309]

Peg got a little more info, the bultaco riders name was Bill Snyder with non matching numbers. also was told the rules were not fair across the board for everyone as a bsa a-70 was turned away for having high pipes but yet Aaron Richtmeyer had piggy back shocks ,wide rims and high pipes. Is any of this true? It came from a good source:)

.

[mrboostfade]

peg, i too would like to know some details.
i was not there but as you can imagine, i get MANY people coming up and asking me or telling me stuff.

in fact the bsa rider was pitted next to sign-up and was a little saddened.

i understand the purpose and integrity of what the ama and you and don are tryingh to do, but if there is favoritism shown where the rules are so tight, then i think its wrong.

[phantom309]

Taken a while for this reply?

[hugoct]

Tim,
My X Gary Nixon Sonicweld Triumph 500 had the rocker arm adjusters fracture after arriving in Daytona
Not a very promising begining to the season
I spoke to Bill Snyder this afternoon
He had spoken to Don over the phone earlier in the year and somehow got the impression that matching numbers were required
There is no mention of matching numbers in the rules so he thought what the heck...
He went to Daytona as planned
He had changed his 360 Bultaco's carb to a roundslide Mikuni so it would be legal for the 1969-1976 class
When he arrived for the shorttrack and found out that by not pre-entering it would cost $100 to ride, he withdrew (he is on Social Security)
He planned to ride the half mile as he was pre-entered but it was rained out...at no point was he disqualified because of a matching numbers situation
The BSA A70 was disqualified according to Charlie Southgate because it did not have a manufacturer's cylinder as required by the rules

Rob,
What is AHRMAs policy as to how a bike qualifies for a particular era ?
Beno told the AMA officials that his bike was legal in AHRMA's Dinosaur class and by association should be legal in AMA vintage because a prototype of the motorcycle existed at the factory in 1951
So what event does AHRMA use to determine a bike's eligability? The year the prototype first appeared? The year it was first offered for sale to the public? The year it was approved for racing in the United States? I would assume that whatever the standard is (and I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know) it would be applied evenhandedly to all bikes regardless of the manufacturer or country of origin

On page 81 of the 2010 AHRMA RuleBook under paragraph "i) Engine:" it states "No major engine components may be changed or updated to later model parts (i.e., cylinder, head, cases, etc.)" what does this mean? how is this rule applied? did anyone know this was a rule? has it ever been enforced?

[phantom309]

Bill , you have got to be shitting me, You let a simple adjuster keep you from racing. Should have looked me up I carry all kinds of spares. You gotta get more prepared to go racing. The BSA I talk about was for the exhaust. He ended up putting low pipes on it and was able to run. Its alright Yamahas can run high pipes piggy back shocks and wide rims? Our point is whats good for one should be good for everyone but seems not the case.The ama will never change. This conversation was with peg too.But thanks for jumping In.

[hugoct]

A simple adjuster would have been no problem
I've been using this brand of adjusters for 40 years
The adjusters are broached for an allen and are induction hardened
They fractured at about the depth of the broach
One of them unscrewed half of itself and wedged in between the rocker arm and the valve
bent the valve
which then locked open and bent the other valve
these are custom 7mm stem oversize head Kibbelwhites made for the Nixon head
We ordered the replacements at Daytona still don't have them
I wish it was all that simple but we will persavere
My wife keeps asking if I'm having fun yet
I too prefer consistent evenhanded treatment for everyone, not just Royal Enfield owners

[phantom309]

There you go running that trick sh-t. Just got my first 7mm stem head and looking forward to run it.Young guy in NC does awesome work. Saw gary running around at the speedway in his porche:)

[phantom309]

I too prefer consistent evenhanded treatment for everyone, not just Royal Enfield owners





o there was some favortisum going on is what your saying. Just saw a picture of that yamaha and it was clearly not within the rules but then again he is buddies with the boss.You guys will have to take care of this stuff before I would come out with a legal bike.

[mrboostfade]

Tim,

The BSA A70 was disqualified according to Charlie Southgate because it did not have a manufacturer's cylinder as required by the rules

Rob,
What is AHRMAs policy as to how a bike qualifies for a particular era ?
Beno told the AMA officials that his bike was legal in AHRMA's Dinosaur class and by association should be legal in AMA vintage because a prototype of the motorcycle existed at the factory in 1951
So what event does AHRMA use to determine a bike's eligability? The year the prototype first appeared? The year it was first offered for sale to the public? The year it was approved for racing in the United States? I would assume that whatever the standard is (and I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know) it would be applied evenhandedly to all bikes regardless of the manufacturer or country of origin

On page 81 of the 2010 AHRMA RuleBook under paragraph "i) Engine:" it states "No major engine components may be changed or updated to later model parts (i.e., cylinder, head, cases, etc.)" what does this mean? how is this rule applied? did anyone know this was a rule? has it ever been enforced?

bill, the a-70 rider was pitted right next to me at ocala.
they said they had to change exhausts to make it legal.
then they raced it.
the cylinder was not illegal.

i am not referring to southgate's bsa.

as for the rules, you know and we have been over this a lillion times! the rules were created before i because a racer. period. i dont know who the original people were that made the rules.

as far as ahrma rules goes, in the 3 years i have yet to have a disqualification or protest so honestly, either the other racers, dont mind or dont care.
im not sure.

and we all know you have some ex factory bikes and from what i have read, many factories were pretty good at bending the rules. for example, i have heard about a number of very thin walled frames made just for factory bikes in the day.
does thet mean that some of your onw personal race bikes may in fact be cheater bikes? how do you know for sure/ have you cut the frame open on the nixon bike to see?

just saying.....

[mrboostfade]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=920&start=25

[hugoct]

Rob,
That is a new low
Implying that Gary Nixon cheated with a thin wall frame in order to win the Championship?
That demonstrates a depth of ignorance regarding the history of flattrack that I did not think was possible
I have had the pleasure of calling Gary Nixon a friend for over forty years
It is not in his character to cheat at the racetrack
The rules were the same when Nixon won his Championships as they are in the current AHRMA rulebook (AMA 1968)"The manufacturer's crankcase, cylinder and cylinder heads...must be used" (AHRMA 2010) "Engine: No major components may be changed or updated to later model parts (i.e., cylinder, head, cases, etc)"
There was no rule regarding tubing diameter or wall thickness (AMA 1968) "the frame must be of the same basic design and material as made by the manufacturer for the approved model in question" (Sonicweld frames were an approved Triumph part)
Harley Davidson put their best riders up against Gary in 1968 and if OBrien could have found any way to disqualify Nixon he would have
Nixon overcame virtually insurmountable odds to win the Championship in 1968 and is a true hero
For you to cast doubt on the validity of Gary or any other factory riders Championships is beyond reprehensable
I am not in their league and neither are you
I asked you two very simple questions that as the AHRMA Dirttrack Director I would have expected you to have an answer to.....if not you...who?
1) What year is used to determine a motorcycles era eligability ?
a) year it was first a prototype
b) year it was available for sale to the public
c) year it was approved for and first appeared in competition
d) ?
2) In view of paragrah "i) Engine: No major engine components may be changed or updated to later model parts (i.e., cylinder, head, cases, etc.)"
are aftermarket cylinders made of a material other than the original as supplied with the engine legal? and if a protest was filed how would you as
the race director rule?
When you get some time come to Texas....it would take about a week to get you up to speed on the history of the sport....and I mean it sincerely....I admire your energy and passion....but not your lack of commitment to AHRMA's supposed "intent of preserving the historically significant periods of American dirttrack racing"

[phantom309]

Bill, get off your high horse, you know what rob was saying, they all cheated one way or another., ask Gary if he ever ran a 5 speed tranny when only a 4 speed was legal. Yes that will answer it all. John Ellis sums this all up in a nut shell. This is almost a joke now, as you have turned this into something other then what we started, you guys letting bikes run that don't fit you bs rules.

[phantom309]

lets put this post over here where it belongs. John has always had a good level head, Like me:)

I see this debate regarding the AMA new vintage DT rules , and have to chuckle some. I had a Expert card in the 70's , and raced Triumphs and latter alloy XR750's in the Midwest. Rules, have always been twisted and bent. Just like Nascar, racers will try to gain an edge and not get caught, or act dumbfounded if they are caught with thier hand in the cookie jar. I know, many I raced against bent the rules and pushed new technology to gain whenever they could get away with it. That is racing. Racing old bikes with 40 year old major components does not make sence all the time. My bikes back then had cheesey Hurst Airhart brakes that would not slow down a bicycle, let alone a 300LB M/C approaching a turn at 100MPH. So, the new rules in AMA will mandate the period brakes? Just the advances in 40 years applied to the period bikes will produce faster speeds, and couple this with new advanced rubber and see what you get. If you want to preserve history, visit a museum. Racers, whether old or young are very competitive, and will try anything to win. I say the AMA relax some, and let the guy's install some newer parts, for safety , if anything. Also, how does a alloy cylinder on a Triumph give it an advantage, other than a few pounds saved. I remember Mert Lawell [sp] had a business card that said all the reasons he did not win, and the last reason was " the other guy's were cheating too"

John Ellis
AHRMA 5X
Junk Yard dawg
F750 YamahaJunk Yard Dawg

Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:55 pm
Private messageTop

[hugoct]

Tim,
I only know what Rob said and it showed Gary no respect
I don't know what John Ellis and Proton Accelarators have to do with this
You guys don't like the AMA program....I think everyone gets that by now...even me (I still can't figure out what theoretical physics has to do with this)
So why spend your time going back to it again and again
I imagine the guys at the AMA value your opinion about as much as you value theirs
I think all of the programs AHRMA, VDTRA, AMA, EM, GR have some good and some areas that could be improved
I personally have a lot of anger regarding what I regard as the perversion of a program for personel benefit and the mistreatment of a friend and legend that I will try to work thru
You and Rob and Uncle Beno work on the AHRMA program and Ken and Don and Peg will work on the AMA program
If any of you or your programs attain enlightenment and perfection you will ascend into Heaven and be at one with the Universe
In the meantime why not work at making your program better and let the other guys find their way without your help unless you can lead by example

[phantom309]

Bill, Im a road racer at hart and just dabble with dirt track. All I wanted to know was why a yamaha was able to run when it was clearly not within the rules and others had to change parts on there bike to make them fit the class rules. Thats real simple and you have beat around every bush in texas.

[mrboostfade]

bill bill bill,
i never ONCE accused nixon of cheating.
although, i KNOW the factories as well as many others had their fair share of cheating.
if you think otherwise, then you are living in your own "FANTASY BIKE" world.

i think honestly, its time you got over the Beno thing. whatever happened, happened long ago, before me, and you keep questioning me like i am the one who was involved.

i have NO idea of ANY detail regarding that other than what YOU have told me.

as far as the rules question, please allow me to forward you to our rules commite chairman
Craig Breckon:616-405-3939
If anyone has a rules question, he is the man to talk to.

why do you keep asking those type questions on public FORUM? my job is to handle protests, sign-ups, insurance, shceduling. and in the sense, i am an ADVISOR to the ruels commitee.

AND LASTLY, WHY ARE YOU TAKING THIS AWAY FROM THE FACTS THAT IN YOUR EARLY POSTS YOU GO ON AND ON ABOUT AHRMA NOT PRESERVING HISTORY WHEN THE "AMA" WHO YOU SEEM TO LOVE SO MUCH WITH THEIR "HISTORICALLY CORRECT" RULES, ALLOWS A BLATANTLY ILLEGAL BIKE TO PARTICIPATE WHEN IN THE SAME EXACT TECH LINE, OTHER BIKES WERE TURNED AWAY FOR MUCH LESS???

[hugoct]

Rob,
I started the thread...I guess I can take it where ever I want....don't like it?...start your own...last I checked it's still a free country
Tim asked ME a question in the second post...I responded...you came late to the party
I have to use the forum to reach you because you don't return phone calls and please don't bore me with how much busier you are than everyone else...cowboy up
My questions were never in regard to any AHRMA history but about AHRMA's current policies and your enforcement of the rules at the races
You could have just said "I am just a powerless toadey...call Craig Brekon" in your first response when I asked the questions and saved both of us a lot of time
If you spent half as much time studying the history of the sport as you do on the forum you would have known that Nixon's frame was legal and there never was a rule regarding tubing size or wall thickness in 1968
Your inference stands on it's own merits supported by Tim's subsequent defamation
If you and Tim would direct your energies toward improving the AHRMA program rather than confessing the AMA's sins as the Woodward and Bernstein of Flattrack both programs will benefit
On the other hand I as the flattrack curmugeon with no official position with any organization reserve the right to continue to point out what I believe to be the shortcomings of any and all the programs